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JAI MA
Margastrayo me vikhyata mokasapraptau nagadhipa
karmayoga jnanayogo bhaktiyogasca sattama
The well know path to Me harmonizes three to attain to Self-Realization ( liberation ) , oh chief of Mountains. These
are in truth: Karma Yoga , Jnana Yoga and Bhakti Yoga.
In Love and Light
Pritam
Margastrayo me vikhyata mokasapraptau nagadhipa
karmayoga jnanayogo bhaktiyogasca sattama
The well know path to Me harmonizes three to attain to Self-Realization ( liberation ) , oh chief of Mountains. These
are in truth: Karma Yoga , Jnana Yoga and Bhakti Yoga.
In Love and Light
Pritam
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Re: Path to the Divine Mother from the Devi Gita Chapter 9 sloka 2
Fri, August 24, 2007 - 8:47 PMhey Pritam --
but but but ... to reach the Mother Divine, it's essential to have yoga (union with god) first.
first yoga, THEN karma, jnana and bhakti make sense. my experience -- and I mean experience directly with the Mother Divine, by the way, -- is that those 3 assets don't GET us to yoga. but they're mighty handy tools for understanding our yoga (union with god) once we've had some taste of that yoga.
once you see the Mother Divine in form, THEN performing actions, from the state of union with Her, makes sense and doesn't cause the usual karmas, action to reaction.
when you've experienced Her in form, then the jnana can really flow and it makes sense, how to understand deeply the relationship with Her and with Shiva and the other divine characters. otherwise, it's just intellectual, or intellectual with intuitive, knowledge, but it's not approaching the deep soul knowledge of yoga. my experience is that the profound experiences of bhakti don't start in the human heart or soul until we've had direct, irrefutable, eye-open experience of the divine.
until that experience, and the digestion that occurs after such an experience, we THINK we know what bhakti is. it's like considering the love a mother has for her child -- we think we know what that love is, how deep and ferocious and tender and all-consuming it is -- but unless we've had children ourselves, we're only guessing.
Alx -
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Re: Path to the Divine Mother from the Devi Gita Chapter 9 sloka 2
Fri, August 24, 2007 - 8:57 PMNamah Sivaya
Interesting point that you state Alx...
Even though I have experienced the total absolute Divine love in physical form, I do not believe that it is totally and completely necessary to have this Ultimate merging with divine love of the Mother in physical form to get its nectar.
I think if one is truly steadfast in bhakti, they too can experience this divine bliss... Especially when one is serving humanity with a complete and opened heart, grace really has no choice other than to bestow that person.
When one is alligned in their truth of heart and devotion, they i believe can indeed experience the ultimate nectar of the Divine.
Just my feeling on this. Thanks for sharing your views...
Bala -
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Re: Path to the Divine Mother from the Devi Gita Chapter 9 sloka 2
Fri, August 24, 2007 - 9:08 PMWant to add something:
When we step out of the intellect and delve into the lotus of our heart, satya(truth) our complete truth dwells. Our ultimate truth is to know God... God within our heart, out true self. When the mind is quiet and the ego surenders, then we can merge with the Divine in whichever form ~be it the Mother etc... If one can find this stillness and ultimate harmony then they too have found a physical union with the Divine..It does not need to be an external experience for our ultimate truth stems from within...
Bala
Namah Sivaya
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Re: Path to the Divine Mother from the Devi Gita Chapter 9 sloka 2
Fri, August 24, 2007 - 9:23 PMhi, Bala, you wrote:
"I do not believe that it is totally and completely necessary to have this Ultimate merging with divine love of the Mother in physical form to get its nectar.
I think if one is truly steadfast in bhakti, they too can experience this divine bliss..."
in my experience, it depends on what you want. I would never argue that one doesn't experience bliss through various means. but is that what we want? is bliss the ultimate?
I don't think so.
personally, bliss isn't near enough for me -- I want to know Her mechanisms. fully. I want to become like Her -- not be Her grateful child forever and ever, sitting in Her lap, basking in Her love, and not receiving the totality of Her experience and Her channels.
and I would offer -- how many people are truly steadfast in bhakti? there is so much illusion (from Her!) that is just waiting at every turn to throw us off, close our hearts, cause some reaction from us that is less than perfect open-hearted loving and acceptance. of those people who are steadfast in their bhakti -- how many really gain enlightenment channels from Her?
in love,
Alx
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Re: Path to the Divine Mother from the Devi Gita Chapter 9 sloka 2
Sat, August 25, 2007 - 7:48 AM
Namah Sivaya Alx...
I hear what you are saying and you bring up good points of view, though I guess when i wrote this divine bliss, i guess i was referring to union with it. When speaking of expressions of the Divine I get limited in my vocabulary sometimes. I find it a challenge to put the love I have experienced into something tangible like words...
You said:
"personally, bliss isn't near enough for me -- I want to know Her mechanisms. fully. I want to become like Her -- not be Her grateful child forever and ever, sitting in Her lap, basking in Her love, and not receiving the totality of Her experience and Her channels."
I believe when one experiences this Divine Bliss or Divine Union with The Mother within their own heart, they are able to become like Her because they have experienced this truth within.
One can be sitting next to a completely realized being and not feel anything, while another person can be not even in the same room as them and feel this Supreme Union.
With an opened heart, the realization of our own true nature, love or however else someone interprets it can be experienced. From this experience can we walk in this way, becoming this love and expressing it...
you stated:
"and I would offer -- how many people are truly steadfast in bhakti? there is so much illusion (from Her!) that is just waiting at every turn to throw us off, close our hearts, cause some reaction from us that is less than perfect open-hearted loving and acceptance. of those people who are steadfast in their bhakti -- how many really gain enlightenment channels from Her?"
True, there are not many that are truly steadfast in their Bhakti 100% every single waking hour of their life, though like you stated closing our hearts, getting thrown off etc... isnt this all part of it? Isnt this part of the work of being on this spinning maya we call earth?
It is all a leela, though these experiences bring us closer, or at least i would like to believe, bring us closer to our true self.
As far as enlightment goes.... it honestly is not my goal. I may be the only person here that feels this way, though I am not solely interested in the thoughts of if i chant 108 rounds on my mala, chant The 1000 Names of the Divine Mother everyday, meditate hours on end etc....will i then reach enlightenment... Sure i may incorporate all these practices in my day to day life, though it is not for the thought that if i keep doing this i will indeed one day reach enlightenment. Like a race or something. I personally think it would be an unsettling feeling like looking outside of ourself to reach this state. I just want to become that love that bliss that Union of the Divine, that stillness within... without any strings attached or expectations.
I just wish to serve all my brothers and sisters with the Supreme Love that I have been blessed with experiencing in this lifetime.
Namah Sivaya
Bala
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Re: Path to the Divine Mother from the Devi Gita Chapter 9 sloka 2
Sat, August 25, 2007 - 4:38 AM"when you've experienced Her in form, then the jnana can really flow and it makes sense, how to understand deeply the relationship with Her and with Shiva and the other divine characters. otherwise, it's just intellectual, or intellectual with intuitive, knowledge, but it's not approaching the deep soul knowledge of yoga. my experience is that the profound experiences of bhakti don't start in the human heart or soul until we've had direct, irrefutable, eye-open experience of the divine"
Darshan of the Divine Mother trumps all yogas and philosophies. I myself have had only the briefest of glimpses, but its enough to convince me of that. All the practices, all the sadhanas, are that we might have darshan of the Divine, in whatever Form we relate to.
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Re: Path to the Divine Mother from the Devi Gita Chapter 9 sloka 2
Sun, August 26, 2007 - 3:51 PM>>"but but but ... to reach the Mother Divine, it's essential to have yoga (union with god) first.
first yoga, THEN karma, jnana and bhakti make sense. my experience -- and I mean experience directly with the Mother Divine, by the way..."
very interesting Alx...I do respect your experiences, incisiveness, and your desire to be like Her...
just curious, can it all be so clear cut? many would assert that their primary channel to Mother is through bhakti, some don't hold any desire to merge with Her, but to serve Mother, to be Her child eternally...so this would kinda be dismissing their path, wouldn't it? Bhakti is not my primary spiritual path either, so i could be wrong, but nonetheless, the diversity of paths seems essential, there must be some choice here, it is not one size fits all... the varying paths of religions/traditions are like spokes of a great wheel that may all lead to the same place, imo...
all I know is my path fits my disposition, but it might not work for anyone else...I do know that my path to Mother has as much to do with my incarnation in this life time, the sum total if you will of my karma, that has brought me to experience Mahamaya, while it also directs and informs my path to union and liberation...
I believe that this all hinges on the question of the jiva being able to reach Self-realization in one lifetime, and most will not, so we're working with what we've got here and now, in this moment...
~ Om Shanti ~ -
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Re: Path to the Divine Mother from the Devi Gita Chapter 9 sloka 2
Mon, August 27, 2007 - 12:35 AMhi, Adya --
what I said, above, is that it really depends on what someone wants. obviously not everyone will want the same kinds of spiritual experiences, for whatever reason, and that's what keeps this world interesting.
I was objecting specifically to the conventional mis-understanding in Sanskrit texts, like the quote that started this thread and certain passages in the Gita, where it's assumed that yoga can be achieved through any of these differing paths. the passage I posted in the thread on the Gita had an amazing articulation from Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, stating that Shankara's life and times got misunderstood and misapplied in generations that derived from his teachings, and people thought doing karmically good acts would lead to karma yoga and enlightenment, or that learning knowledge would lead to yoga, or that having proper bhakti would lead to yoga. Maharishi was saying, no no no, it's backwards -- get yoga FIRST (through meditation, austerities, spiritual processes), achieve god-realization FIRST and then these other attributes and expressions of that yoga (union with god) will spring forth as you express your enlightenment.
from this stance, then, and from my own experiences, I heartily agree with Maharshi -- especially if you are the sort of person who wants a total enlightenment, to turn as a high-level supernatural character able to handle the Mahamaya, the life/death cycles, the soul travel and miracle abilities.
if you want to know and play with Her mechanisms, those other doorways into bliss aren't going to be enough.
if you only want the bliss of the experience, of being in Her illusion realm and getting Her love -- no need to pursue the yoga experience, or receive Her darshan.
yes, I know that many people assert that their primary channel to the Mother Divine is through bhakti, but I have yet to hear of any saint in this histories who received knowledge of Her mechanisms, and who received Her darshan, purely from their bhakti. do you see what I mean?
that's why I was saying, it really depends on what you want.
some people want Her love, and that's beautiful. of course they'll receive it through the bhakti way.
but some people want not only Her love but Her mechanisms. that's a little more demanding, is all I'm saying, and in that case achieving yoga first is the doorway that opens up gyana, bhakti and karma yoga dynamically.
Alx -
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Re: Path to the Divine Mother from the Devi Gita Chapter 9 sloka 2
Mon, August 27, 2007 - 4:32 AMDoesn't the Lord say (somewhere in the Gita?) that yoga is both the way and the destination? If that is the case, both sides of this issue are equally correct (and equally incorrect as well, depending on your point of view).
Of course it's true that at some level we are all Divinities, Avatars. I've heard my Guru say this. In that sense, it's correct to say that we should affirm and be aware of that first (Realization), and then our practices (Sadhana) will be fruitful.
And of course it's true that what non-realized people are doing when they practice the various types of yoga, including integral yoga, is not full-blown Realization. That would be a non-sequitur.
But is it really correct to say it's not yoga?
Also, let's not forget the Guru (a.k.a. that particular aspect of the Lord which is called Guru). The scriptures say clearly that Moksha is not something that is attained by the Sadhak. No amount of Sadhana gives one a claim to Moksha. Moksha is granted by Divinity acting through the Guru. We can try to be deserving of that, but it would be a sad mistake to think that some quantity of Sadhana automatically results in Moksha. After all, if our Sadhana is effective, it is only through Her (the Lord's) grace. -
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Re: Path to the Divine Mother from the Devi Gita Chapter 9 sloka 2
Tue, August 28, 2007 - 6:06 AM"The scriptures say clearly that Moksha is not something that is attained by the Sadhak. No amount of Sadhana gives one a claim to Moksha. Moksha is granted by Divinity acting through the Guru. We can try to be deserving of that, but it would be a sad mistake to think that some quantity of Sadhana automatically results in Moksha. After all, if our Sadhana is effective, it is only through Her (the Lord's) grace."
Our effort, our aspiration and intention, AND Divine Grace. Its kind of a paradox, for we can never be something else than the One we truly are, but the veils are covering it, and its only at some point in time that they fall away and the Self is remembered, past any possibility of forgetting. Every bit of that effort is still worthwhile, is immensely precious, even though in the end Moksha happens when it does, of its own accord. All we really have is the present moment, and where we choose to focus our attention. Choose once again, to remember God, the Oneness, the Truth of Who we are, however you understand it. Every moment we have that choice - Ram or Aham, God or Ego. And absolutely everything arises from that choice - all realms, all beings, in this very moment. We are not separate - that is the very truth of it. So within the perishing mortal body, you can affirm the truth of this, and simply BE the One, joyfully and exuberantly, shining and sharing the love with all you meet, to the extent they are ready to receive. Moksha only expands this, our capacity to love and serve. -
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Re: Path to the Divine Mother from the Devi Gita Chapter 9 sloka 2
Wed, August 29, 2007 - 3:39 PMTorrey and Narayan --
yes, interesting points. I think my major statement is that the direct experience of something beyond the mind happens first. then the other balls fall into place.
you both wrote:
Narayan: 'We can try to be deserving of that, but it would be a sad mistake to think that some quantity of Sadhana automatically results in Moksha. After all, if our Sadhana is effective, it is only through Her (the Lord's) grace."
Torrey: "Our effort, our aspiration and intention, AND Divine Grace. Its kind of a paradox"
and the paradox is -- 'god helps those who help themselves" ?????
*grinning*
seriously, though, I've heard my own master say that enlightenment (moksha) is 50% the student's hard work, 40% the master's hard work (for the student), and 10% the god's grace.
so, as usual - it's both.
Torrey's point about Moksha expanding the capacity to love and serve is a useful one -- but also loving and serving is itself creating moksha. healing others (esp using divine energy channels to do so) is also a kind of yoga, union with god.
yet another paradox.
but my favorite paradox -- we are simultaneously part of, and subject to, god.
Alx
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Re: Path to the Divine Mother from the Devi Gita Chapter 9 sloka 2
Wed, August 29, 2007 - 4:46 PMDear Alx,
I understand that there are apparently many mis-understandings of the Sanskrit texts, not excluding the misapplication of Shankara's life and works ... what I know of his interpretation of Advaita (vendanta), it does not align with my view of non-dualism...
I do agree that without a Guru (whether physically manifested or not), the hidden meanings are not going to be evident to most who just read these texts, for we can only see as far as sight allows -- we can only hear what needs to be heard when we're endowed with the grace of listening, and both are a spiritual gift ...
I see a great difference between knowledge of the intellect and direct Knowledge ... with Jnana or Knowledge, these texts take on a whole other meaning ... this is true for many of the sacred texts of esoteric traditions and having a teacher is essential in unlocking their truth ... this is why I have such a great respect for authentic traditions ...
now, whether union with god must come first to receive Jnana, I cannot say for sure...I would reiterate that our karma in this incarnation has much to do with how we will react in any situation to repeating patterns and karmic knots that will come up for anyone in a physical body, and if Jnana was already present at the birth of this incarnation, perhaps needing only to be reawakened though some experience, than the focus for the jiva will be elsewhere for this incarnation, if s/he is to attain Self-realization...
btw - that is my own personal view, based upon direct experience..
you wrote:: >>" if you only want the bliss of the experience, of being in Her illusion realm and getting Her love -- no need to pursue the yoga experience, or receive Her darshan."
the word "Bliss" is an extremely loaded word in our western culture ... it seems to conjure a lot of nonsense, Imo ... for example, authentic tanrik traditions define the word quite differently compared to those who practice so-called westernized tantra ... Shaivites say merging with their Lord is *bliss*, but this is the groundless consciousness that has nothing to do with the pleasure of the senses that I believe the western tantrics seem to focus on in their sexual practices..
could you please explain how you're defining the word?
~ Om shanti
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Re: Path to the Divine Mother from the Devi Gita Chapter 9 sloka 2
Wed, August 29, 2007 - 10:20 PMAdya --
bliss: sat-chit-ananda -- the bliss awake in Itself.
nothing to do with material circumstances, sexualized feelings, or a yummy tummy from an ice cream sundae.
bliss -- the god nature. the backdrop condition of all creation (whether we think the moment is traumatic or happy), the constant is-ness that permeates this entire world and the souls in it.
that's what I mean by bliss.
I didn't know that you had a guru, Adya -- who is your teacher?
Alx -
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Re: Path to the Divine Mother from the Devi Gita Chapter 9 sloka 2
Wed, August 29, 2007 - 11:40 PMI was helping out a swami today in the store who was trying to find a certain edition of the Upanishads - he was 74... very nice demeanor, no pretention - he said, "you must know a lot from reading all of these books!" as I had mentioned that I tended to snag certain titles when they came in... I responded, "I'm just a student..."
I went to look in backstock for him, didn't find it, but when I came back, he looked deeply into my eyes, smiled, and said, "I feel we are exchanging much energy!" and gave me a big hug out of nowhere. he pulled back, looked me in the eyes, and gave me another hug, this time lifting me off my feet! I had to smile at this little old Indian man picking my (admittedly skinny) frame up off of the ground, and I told him, "Om Shanti" as he was leaving and he smiled with what looked like the look you get before you cry in his eyes; a wave of compassion. it was a wonderful experience, and made my whole day. I wish I had caught his name.
I dunno why I inserted that here, it just felt right. -
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Re: Path to the Divine Mother from the Devi Gita Chapter 9 sloka 2
Thu, August 30, 2007 - 6:26 AMThey see us, Saul. That's why they have been coming to these States since the late 1960's. For whatever reasons, a lot of "old souls" being born in the West, for some time now. And so, the Dharma has come to US, to a degree unprecedented in all known history. And these extraordinary mahatmas, some really high beings, coming here in a public way - we are very blessed. The most materialistic, ego-bound society ever known is somehow also the place where the Divine Grace is flowing most abundantly, -
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Re: Path to the Divine Mother from the Devi Gita Chapter 9 sloka 2
Thu, August 30, 2007 - 12:49 PMSaul!
hey, what a beautiful story. why were you moved to post it here, in a thread on the Mother? because SHE was showing you Her beautiful, connected, blessing love through that Swami. the Mother in him was meeting the Mother in you -- and what a beautiful, anonymous blessing.
Torrey -- it's a beautiful commentary on the Indian yogis and yoginis coming to America to give us the high divine downloads and lift our vibrations. one comment, though, if I may -- they've been coming to America since Viveikananda was sent by Ramakrishna (another great expert on the Mother, Maha Kali in particular) in the 1890s. Yogananda was the next wave after Viveikananda, staying in America, mostly, from the 1920s to the 1950s, when he took his samadhi in Los Angeles in the early '50s. immediately after Yogananda took off, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi showed up in 1955 to America and started setting up what would become the TM (Transcendental Meditation) organization.
so they've been with us, physically, and influencing our society both on the surface and the deep layers, since the late 1800s -- about 70 years before the 1960s, the 'wave of yogis' started. *grinning*
it's instructive to look at how and who and why (and what message) has come through these different chracters at different times, and their sphere of influence -- Viveikananda set up Vedanta centers, reaching a few people in America, Yogananda inititated over a hundred thousand people personally into kriya yoga, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi taught millions to meditate, Muktananda brought Shakti channels into an otherwise Bhakti structure, then Ammachi and the other Mothers started coming, embodying the Shakti -- and then look at the current wave of top yogis and how they fit into this trajectory of evolution in America.
quite fascinating.
Alx -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Path to the Divine Mother from the Devi Gita Chapter 9 sloka 2
Thu, August 30, 2007 - 10:14 PMAlx,
Very true that Dharma was seeded in the West long before the floodgates opened in the 1960's. Way back in the mid-19th Century you can see it clearly in writers like Emerson and Thoreau, as well as in Madame Blavatsky's Theosophical Society and its many spin-offs. My great Aunt grew up in a Theosophical commune of sorts in California, where the children attended "Raja Yoga School" and studied the Bhagavad Gita. From those early waves up to the present, it has been a mixture of genuine knowledge with misunderstanding and deliberate hoaxes, authentic saints and masters along with the charlatans and rascals. Some of the latter, in my humble view, among those you named. The naivete of Westerners with regard to the "mystic East" has made us vulnerable to being exploited in this way. "All that glitters is not gold" is every bit as true in India as in the West - something that many of us truth-seekers have had to learn the hard way.
Namaste,
Torrey -
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Re: Path to the Divine Mother from the Devi Gita Chapter 9 sloka 2
Thu, August 30, 2007 - 11:21 PMTorrey --
aha, now we're really jumping into Mother's lap! too fun.
yes, of course there have been charlatans among the so-called saints and gurus. that's natural. *grinning* it's part of Her play, and -- sadly enough -- our karma as Westerners. through our lack of clarity, or weird stuff we did in other lifetimes, or who knows what, She sent some pretty good fake ones along with the real masters.
it breaks my heart -- I meet people all the time who are (understandably) wary about gurus because they've suffered horrendous experiences and heartbreaks, having either put all of their faith and commitment and love into a spiritual path that ultimately didn't deliver the results (for whatever reason) OR they put all of that faith and commitment and love AND money into an alleged guru who happily absconded with the money and left the person holding the bag.
it's an intense and awful thing to meet folks in this position, because they have a hard time trusting anything or anyone after having had their hearts broken like this.
when a real master shows up, the heartbreak is often what decides whether this one is possibly real or not -- if one even has the wherewithal to try again after having been shattered in trust and belief.
Alx
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Re: Path to the Divine Mother from the Devi Gita Chapter 9 sloka 2
Thu, August 30, 2007 - 7:24 AMthat was such a nice pastimes saul! adorable.
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Re: Path to the Divine Mother from the Devi Gita Chapter 9 sloka 2
Thu, August 30, 2007 - 3:11 PMsweet Saul ;)
love,
adya
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Unsu...
Re: Path to the Divine Mother from the Devi Gita Chapter 9 sloka 2
Thu, August 30, 2007 - 3:15 PMSaul! What a blessing! such a beautiful moment . -
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Re: Path to the Divine Mother from the Devi Gita Chapter 9 sloka 2
Thu, August 30, 2007 - 8:34 PM:)
it was quite wonderful, and I did feel quite blessed.
meetings with such people always help remind me I'm on the right track.
(us Vamacharins aren't just about death and skulls all the time, eh? ;)
Jai Ma!
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Re: Path to the Divine Mother from the Devi Gita Chapter 9 sloka 2
Thu, August 30, 2007 - 3:09 PMthank you for defining your use of the word *bliss* - Alx
I was a bit confused by the way you used it above...
I didn't say that I had a Guru exactly, nor did I say I didn't...no offense, I'm not one to discuss the Guru/chela relationship, meaning my personal relationship...I don't feel comfortable doing that here.
oh and it looks like I spelled Vedanta wrong in my previous post when speaking of Advaita... sorry about that...
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Re: Path to the Divine Mother from the Devi Gita Chapter 9 sloka 2
Mon, August 27, 2007 - 3:20 PMHow do we get taste in Yoga?
Namaste -
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Re: Path to the Divine Mother from the Devi Gita Chapter 9 sloka 2
Wed, August 29, 2007 - 3:41 PMhi, Perun --
the best way I know is through sadhana, doing meditation with different mantras that bring different divine experiences as time passes. it's a good idea to get this kind of instruction through a spiritual master, someone who really understands not only what is god, but who you (and your individual soul) are and what kind of energy channels would be best for you.
then, shraddha, sabburi -- practice and patience.
Alx -
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Re: Path to the Divine Mother from the Devi Gita Chapter 9 sloka 2
Fri, August 31, 2007 - 9:08 AMSome people say that once you taste the universe nothing will taste the same any longer. Is it what you refer to? -
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Re: Path to the Divine Mother from the Devi Gita Chapter 9 sloka 2
Fri, August 31, 2007 - 12:38 PMhi, Perun --
not sure about 'tasting the universe.' I do know that once you develop the divine fragrance in yourself, it starts to permeate everything you do, think, feel, and experience.
Alx -
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Re: Path to the Divine Mother from the Devi Gita Chapter 9 sloka 2
Wed, September 5, 2007 - 3:56 PMWhat is Devine Fragrance? If you can please help me understand. -
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Re: Path to the Divine Mother from the Devi Gita Chapter 9 sloka 2
Sun, September 9, 2007 - 10:25 PM
.
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A blind man asks
a mute woman to describe
how a love song smells.
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